Monday, July 12, 2010

Having it all or selfish prick?

Please read the comments, they are the best part.

***

PDQ, a married gay man who recently posted a comment says, "Webster’s defines monogamy as “the condition or practice of having a single mate during a period of time”. Married guy gets it on with a man and a woman, but his man and woman are only supposed to get it on with him exclusively? That’s not monogamy. I see that as a self serving double standard. I see married guy as a bit of a selfish, hypocritical prick frankly. You may not like the sound of that, but that’s what I see. Don’t ask of others what you aren’t willing to do yourself."

How is PDQ wrong? How is it that married bisexual men, who "want it all" are not selfish, hypocritical pricks?

At a minimum, shouldn't every cheating married bisexual make it clear that all relationships are open? The spouse can play? The lover can play?

PDQ: What about those situations where the spouse is told the truth but opts NOT to go outside of the marriage themselves? This is the agreement Mark of Edgy Husband and his spouse recently made. If one partner is satisfied and the other is not, is the unsatisfied partner a selfish hypocritical prick when he asks for an open relationship?

Isn't the crucial survivability factor for long-term marriage the ability of both spouses to compromise when they'd really prefer not to?

Is an open marriage better or worse than no marriage at all?

I look forward to your thoughtful comments.

9 comments:

  1. It all about informed consent. If everyone involved in the relationship(s) knows what they are getting in to, then I'm fine with it. When EVERYONE knows what is going on, each person can choose for himself or herself if they was to be or continue to be involved with the relationship(s).

    If the bi sexual man wants to have it all and is deceiving his wife (i.e. lying, cheating), then he is a selfish prick. She is essentially being held captive. Since her husband is lying to her, she cannot consent to the relationship(s). She does not have all the facts so she cannot decide for herself if she wants in or out.

    Tell your wife = fine and dandy
    Lie to your wife = Selfish prick

    ReplyDelete
  2. I understand the attacks on a particular bi man's "self righteousness" about needing or deserving each of one's multiple partners to be monogamous back. I also don't have lots of sympathy for men having affairs, then complaining that the other person in the affair cheated on them. However, if we believe we do not control our sexual urges, and that for a bisexual there are simply ways the body of one gender will never fulfill them, maybe we can give a little more room for a bi need to have sex that is different with each gender, and having to figure that out somehow and maybe in secret, even if only to know what they really want and understand themselves more fully.

    For a straight man to have another woman on the side means the first woman/wife is not able to meet his needs, sexual and emotional or both. For a bi, it is possible the wife is meeting the needs in the only and supreme way a woman could ever do, but the man needs a man as well. He did not choose that need. The two situations are not symmetrical.

    Lot's of straight and bi and gay people have bumpy roads in their relationships and get into affairs, and some hurt the marriages badly. Others work it out even if they start in secret. Some of those men indulging in secret affairs we can be more compassionate in understanding, while others we look at as just selfish pricks. it is all about the unique story behind the situation. If you agree with our system of law that says we need to look at all the circumstances related to what caused a violation, and can even find some compassion for some violations as reflected in the sentencing, we have adopted far greater tolerance for human misdeeds than a one size fits all punishment or labeling. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and ugliness of human behavior works the same way. Cameron, you had a secret affair with another man for five years, and in your own blog you even suggested it made your overall marriage better in some ways. Where did that spirit go to? We can be harsh judges of bad attitude, but let's be a little less universally condemning of how some people feel they have to act our their sexual identities. I am not uniformly condoning deception, but neither can we just call the secret acts of desperate and lonely men and women deception and sit out there so content to criticize. Jim, be careful of your pristine glass house.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Jayson, you know I like to provoke a good debate and step out of the way to watch the words flow. Now you want to drag me into this?!

    You're quite right that I have been a bad, bad boy in the past. So PDQ's words are not mine.

    You make a good point about cheating and self-discovery. Some could argue that more damage is done to the marriage by simply confessing curiosity versus not confessing, trying man to man sex once, and then deciding it's not for you. Better to be certain first.

    Like you, I believe more in circumstantial decisions rather than black and white rules, so while in most cases my general answer is "be the better person" and "do the right thing" I don't make judgments unless specifically asked.

    As for Jim, I must defend him. He has consistently lived as he advocates. He's no hypocrite.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Maybe I should clarify since I think I sound harsher in writing than I really feel.

    I understand the torture of the lonely gay man. I understand the longing to be with a man, but having a woman in your bed at night. I understand the frustration of knowing you do not feel about your wife the way that other men appear to for their wives. I understand the late night internet porn sessions to try to quiet the desperation in your head. I can even understand that a moment of weakness and a moment of opportunity can merge and cause a good man to incidentally cheat on his wife. This person is not the selfish prick I was referring to earlier.

    What I was referring to was the guy who repeatedly trolls Craig's List for a man to hook up after work when he tells his wife he is working late. Or the guy who has a fuck buddy that he sometimes goes "fishing" with, right under his wife's nose, sometimes for years.

    These are the guys who are selfish pricks. Lying to the face of a woman they supposedly love and care about. I understand why gay and Bisexual men do it, but it is still wrong.

    I know that the only, THE ONLY reason that my wife (soon to be ex-wife) and I are able to have the positive relationship we have today is that I was honest with her all the time.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Why do people need to get so hung up on the labels of things. Why can't people just do what is good for them. What may be good for one might not be good for another.

    I don't think I'm a selfish prick because I chose not to tell my wife everything. It works fine for me.

    TLQ

    ReplyDelete
  6. Does it work for her?

    Would it continue to work for her if she knew the truth?

    You see, I believe when you are married and/or you commit to another person there no longer is any "me", "I", "you". There is only "us". The fact that I am gay does not change that for me. For me the question is not, does it work for me, but does it work for "us".

    I am not judging anyone, even though it sounds that way. I simply am not qualified. I would never even mention it, except the question got asked here, so I gave my opinion. And when I say "you" I mean a generic "you" and my comments are not directed at any particular person, just general situations.

    I have said before, it does not matter what I think about any individual person's situation. It is ONLY between you are your wife. There is a high likely hood that sooner or later she will find out. What happens then?

    ReplyDelete
  7. Your two posts prior to this were titled:

    "Why be gay when men are liars and cheats?"

    "Why come out of the closet if you can have it all?"

    In the "Why come out..." post you write:

    "Here's my question: if my wife honestly believes that I'm a terrific husband, doesn't that make me so? Isn't she the only person entitled to judge?

    And if I have a 40 year love affair with a man, that she never finds out about, and the affair makes me a happy, fulfilled person instead of an unhappy pessimist, should I regret the affair? Haven't I actually been the better person by sharing joy with her instead of anguish?"


    Compare and contrast the title of the first post I cited with the content that YOU wrote in the second post I cited. Who is it again that can't be trusted because they lie and cheat????

    Are you suggesting that when you're with your wife you're a straight man, but when you're fucking a guy on the side you're still a straight man?? Seriously?

    Pardon me for saying so, but I read this and think "selfish, hypocritical prick"

    And again - I'll point out that if she doesn't know you're cheating on her, that doesn't make you the better husband as you've somehow deluded yourself into believing. Nor does it make you the "better person for sharing joy with her instead of anguish" as you put it. That's a load of crap. What it makes you is a liar and a cheater. If you tell her what you're doing and she allows you to do it, that's a whole other story.

    I'll draw a parallel to Bernie Madoff: His clients thought he was an excellent investment advisor for all those years he was stealing their money. So did that make him a great investment advisor because no one knew the real story? No, it made him a liar and a thief and his clients were the victims.

    Dude, you're a fucking mess! Are you actually instilling values like this in your kids??? Christ almighty - they'll probably all turn out to be pathological liars.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Thanks for returning and commenting, PDQ.

    In the most recent posts I have been taking on controversial opinions and asking for comments. When I ask a question, it's a real question. However, the scenario leading up to the question(s) are hypothetical, usually an exaggerated version of a point of view I've read elsewhere or experienced myself in the past.

    I see that you have clicked through some older posts, so you did some checking before commenting. This leads me to conclude that I haven't been clear about my current status. In a nutshell, I haven't been with or sought a man in more than 7 years. I have no desire to have an affair. My wife has been in an intensifying battle with her demons for the past four years. Those demons include a complete loser boyfriend, alcohol, and a desire to be free of all responsibility - especially responsibility to the kids, but also to work and to me. I have chosen to enable her behavior. We've grown up together and I have faith in myself to know how to best help her. Essentially I let her do whatever she wants and I cover for her. If I do as much as I can to give her the freedom she craves and our marriage is still too stifling for her, then we will separate. If that happens, I will eventually pursue a monogamous relationship with a man.

    Others who read this blog may agree that I am a fucking mess, but probably not for the reasons you have cited.

    I hope you will return regularly. I enjoy a healthy, productive clash of opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  9. I think it important to point out the difference between "monogomous" and "exclusive." A married person having a relationship outside of their marriage is obviously NOT monogomous.

    Still it its possible that someone can have a NON-monogomous relationship with another and ask that it be exclusive. Two married (non monogomous) men can have a realtionship with each other and ask that they be exclusively the only men involved.

    "Cheating" is the breach of an accepted and agreed upon expectation. Ultimately it boils down to what people ask for and agree to. An Open Book exam is not cheating if that is the criteria as understood.

    If it is understood by all parties that a relationship is not monogmous then it is not cheating. In the same line, if participants ask for an exclusive arrangement and digress, it is cheating.

    ReplyDelete