These stories show that some struggling men can find happiness by implementing the first part of the "win-win."
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Story Two - No Regrets
An email exchange on a listserv for bi-married men:
Man One:
Well it's been about 5 weeks since I revealed my bisexuality to my wife and it seems that she cannot get enough sex. Just wondering if any other guys had similar experiences post disclosure and if their wife's increased sex drive lasted.
Man Two:
I say the same thing happened to me, I think part of it was almost relief that it came out. Its been 4 years and the honeymoon phase still going on
my wife initially had nothing less than a thermo-nuclear meltdown. After about 4 weeks, it became insatiablity at its finest. Our sex life really blossomed, and I think it was for a couple of reasons:
1. she feels closer to me because I have told her my innermost secret and darkest truth. She knows me through and through to a degree that other couples can only aspire
2. while I told her about my days in college when I played with guys, I have done nothing in our 12 years together with another man. [not for lack of fantasy, I will tell you that!!!] However, it has opened a new door to sexual exploration for us. We are still monogamous, but the things we do in bed have taken a turn and we have broken free of the rut that so many couples begin to find themselves after years of monogamy.
there comes a time in every bisexual man's life when he must be true to himself. He cannot just dream it or pretend it away; if he is married, then he owes it to himself AND his wife to be open and forthright about the who and the what he is. Either she will stay, or she will leave, but either way, you will be honest to yourself and therefore ultimately happier.
It's easy for me to say all this in hindsight, but I can also tell you that I was a mental and emotional rollercoaster until I came OUT to my wife. It was hard for awhile; lots of tears, lots of yelling, lots of anxiety. However, once the dust settled, I would never go back to pre-OUT. I'm bi and it makes no difference in my work or my parenting skills. But I will tell you, it makes all the difference in my self-esteem, self-worth, and self-respect.
Story Three - Transformation
Below is a married, closeted man's story, as told in his own words.
This first quote is him ruminating on his options as he struggles with his long-term marriage.
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this concept of “options”.
I know that an option is to stay married and faithful to my wife. Period. I have tried that option for the past 25 years. Not sure that it is working all that well for me. I am gay. I am finding it increasingly harder to deny this part of who I am. I would change it if I could. I can’t. In some ways, I wish I could just permanently bury this part of me. I just can’t seem to figure out how. Suppose it’s stupid to even try.
There is the option of leaving my wife and leading a life where I can be true and accepting of who I really am. This one I understand. The transition would be painful. Very painful. But on the others side of this transition, I could lead a true and authentic life. This is the path that seems to make the most sense, but also seems to have most intense burst of pain to get there.
It’s the middle ground that I am having a hard time with. In one respect, a solution would be to stay married, but be allowed to experience my gay side. Open marriage if you will. I am not sure how I could be honest with my wife and make this happen. I have heard that there are often “rules” for these types of arrangements. For example, you have to tell your spouse who you are with and what you did. That sounds a lot easier said than done. I think I would still feel guilt over my actions and the telling part would make it worse. At the same time, not telling feels like more of the same old barriers that are tearing my apart right now.
What happens if I fall in love with a guy? Then what? I split my time between my wife and my boyfriend. Guess that’s good for me, but seems totally unfair to both of them. And in the end, it might not be so good for me either.
How about the “closed loop” option? I stay married and have one “special friend”, perhaps another married guy. Maybe this works. He has a wife, I have a wife. We fulfill our needs with each other and have a relationship that is more than a one-time hook-up. Sounds like it could be ok. But where do you find the right guy to get into this type of relationship. It seems that most married guys like me are hanging out pretty deep in the closet.
When I get down to it, the whole thing seems pretty “black and white”. Stay married or don’t. Everything in the middle just muddies the water and causes more pain and confusion. Life is full of “shades of gray”, but I am having a hard time seeing them here.
Two months after writing about his options, the man decided he couldn't live in the closet any longer. When he came out to his wife he didn't know what he wanted. He'd had some tantalizing connections with men but also felt a strong emotional connection to his wife.
About a month after coming out, he shared this update:
Since having the discussion with my wife, the world seems to be spinning faster than ever…but in a good way. Sometimes a day seems like a month. One of my hopes was that my wife and I would be able to cycle through the most difficult parts of this journey quickly. We indeed seem to be making this happen, which is great.
I have tried really hard to give the issue of repairing my marriage the time that it needs. I am glad that my work and travel scheduled has allowed this to happen.
My wife and I have been talking more and at greater depth than at any time in our relationship. The conversations are deep and meaningful. I really feel like she understands me and I am understanding her. The only bad part about all of this is that, perhaps, we should have done all this a long time ago. On the other hand, the things we have experienced make us who we are….and right now I would not want to change that.
My wife’s full acceptance of me makes me love her even more than ever. Our sex life has gone from recently nonexistent, to passionate, sensual and exciting. For a while, I did not want her to really even touch me. Now, we can’t seem to get enough of each other. Incredible!
Having said all this, it has not been all sunshine and roses. We have both had to process a lot of really intense emotions. There have been times when her anger has been intense. She is upset with herself for not being there for me during this dark time. I keep telling her that is something that I didn’t allow her to do. It’s really my fault, not hers.
She has also been very angry that I broke our marriage vows. She fully supports me experiencing who I am; however, the fact that this has occurred without us talking about it in advance is a big issue. I really need to work hard to regain her trust and faith in me.
On my end, I am working hard to be expressive of my feelings and be sure that I am communicating with her at a deep and honest level. There have been times when I have not been sure what I am feeling. It has taken awhile to really figure out what I am feeling and why. It has not been easy and at times we have shed a great deal of tears. They seem to be necessary for both of us to heal.
The next chapters are yet to be written. We have talked some about boundaries. As we make our relationship work, we both know that we need to be totally honest and we need to be on the same page as to what is and is not acceptable. It’s not totally clear what the future looks like, but it does look pretty good. I am definitely committed to being a complete person and sharing all of who I am with my wife. Since the big transition day, she has been consistent in her support.
These words really don’t come close to capturing the highest highs that I have ever experienced in my life. They have definitely happened. At the same time, they also don’t capture the pain, anger and turmoil that we have both felt. The intensity of all of these feelings has, at times, been overwhelming.
Can I have it all? I’m not sure, but I’m looking forward to trying.
Many bisexual men are afraid to come out to their wives because they don't think the news will be well-received. They're afraid of losing their marriages and destroying the lives of everyone around them.
In the above two stories, these men came out to their wives and, indeed, their marriages were severely tested. However, because they broke down old barriers and sought to deepen the bond with their wives, their marriages not only survived but flourished.
Women cherish intimacy. It seriously turns them on. Wouldn't most straight men love to be able to say this after 25 years of marriage?
"Our sex life has gone from recently nonexistent, to passionate, sensual and exciting. For a while, I did not want her to really even touch me. Now, we can’t seem to get enough of each other. Incredible!"
The cynics and skeptics will inevitably ask, "Will these marriages last?"
Or they'll say that these periods of happiness are temporary and the men will return to their struggle later.
My response is, "does it matter?" These couples are far happier than they were before.
Besides, the beauty of the "win-win" is that if the first phase doesn't work, the second phase will.
Either way, the "win-win" is the best possible way a struggling bi-married man can find enduring happiness.
---
A post-script:
Because the pivot point in both of these stories is the husband coming out to his wife, it might appear that I'm suggesting that struggling bi-married men come out to their wives. This is not the case.
As stated in my post about the first phase of the "win-win" coming out is NOT required.
Unfortunately most struggling bi-married men never consider the possibility of addressing the intimacy problems within their marriage EXCEPT within the context of coming out. Although the two ideas are often tied together, coming out is only ONE WAY of bridging the intimacy gap. There are others, as detailed in the many marital self-books that are available at local libraries.
Just to be clear, I'm going to repeat this statement once again: coming out is not required to successfully implement the "win-win." However, recommitting to true intimacy within the marriage is.
I think it's useful you show others that there can be successes. But on the other hand, for every success, one probably can show many examples of failures. It just seems to depend on the couples -- if you can pinpoint some indicators of a positive outcome, then that would be really helpful to guys trying to decide whether to take the plunge or not. Otherwise, the only way to find out is to try to it without knowing the chance of success. For many guys, that's too iffy a proposition and inaction remains the status quo.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous & Jayson - Thanks for your comments. Because of them I have added a post-script to the post. As you can see, it states that coming out is not required within the context of the "win-win."
DeleteThis post makes it seem that they are inexorably linked, and they very frequently are, but there are plenty of committed, monogamous, closeted bisexual men who are happy with their marriages. We just never hear about them because they're not struggling.
In the end, it comes down to being true to yourself. Secrets are never good. In the same vein, having sex with someone while not telling your partner exposes the partner to risks, both physical and emotional.
ReplyDeleteWhat you said!
DeleteMany times women want more sex with you after you come out to them. They are insecure and feel threatened. They want to prove that they can still be sexually attractive and fulfilling to you.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you're right. But I also think there are other, related factors involved. Notice how the man who identifies as gay in second story is amazed by the re-ignited connection he feels with his wife. That's not just because his straight wife wanted to impress him, it's because they broke down barriers and that's brought them closer together, both emotionally and sexually.
DeleteMy observation is that many women want more sex with men after they come out, because for the first time there is a level of emotional intimacy and honesty that they have not experienced with you before.
DeleteIn this statement there is somehow a secret that truly is a win win.
"In this statement there is somehow a secret that truly is a win win."
DeletePrecisely. I'm glad someone understands.
THAT is exactly what happened when I finally got the truth out of my husband. I damn near attacked him when he came home and our sex life for the next several months was on fire like never before. We talked well until 2a every night for months..
DeleteEventually this dwindled.. he became more secretive with how often he was seeing men.. and now two years later we barely talk. All other aspects of our life are as normal white picket fence families go.
Cameron
ReplyDeleteI commend you for continuing to work on this issue and include the stories of real men. We each have unique marriages and also unique ways that we are able to either compartmentalize, or integrate, our multiple sides and orientations. The cases you site are of men who genuinely seem to be bisexual, and still have some abiding love for their wives. They are also untested by the actual "acting out" of the man's other side. Yes, there are men, and I have met some even in my small town, who have negotiated having occasional sex with men within the framework of a marriage. And blogger Jack Scott is a shining example of a man who had deep emotional relationships with one "buddy" during his marriage, one started before he talked to his wife, and then more openly afterward.
But the statistics are still daunting---I know the value of individual stories, but objective research and studies are also important (I have a future post on this topic)
* in 5 of 6 marriages where the man come out as Bi or Gay, the marriage ends within 2 years
* not all men who end these marriages find bliss with a man, especially older guys - a New York Time article covered this side of coming out primarily in interviewing a prominent therapist who was rethinking his formerly strong advice to clients to tell wives and deal with the outcomes.
* an estimated one in 8 to one in 10 American married men had sex with another man within a year of a 2007 study - and other studies suggest over 10% of adults have unrealized homosexual fantasies
The point is, there are many millions of married men who are dreaming about, or actually having sex with men. Yes, many find out they are bi, and others exclusively gay, as they figure out and act out these urges. So many who have "come out" and ended marriages seem to have become very happy at the result - just look at the blogs
But for possibly millions, the purgatory of staying secret is unfortunately a result of their own understanding of the difficult choices and consequences.
Just today, Jack Scott reiterated his caution about coming out to the wife - as he has seen several men who found this led to some long term terrible consequences.
Jayson, thanks for the interesting statistics. I look forward to reading more about them in your upcoming post.
DeleteI hope you don't mind if I play devil's advocate with you?
Is there any chance that your research is biased in favor of your status quo? There's nothing inherently wrong with this because, even if it's true, it's an indication that you've made an important decision.
Personally, I'd like to see you try my suggestion. As I've said, you don't need to come out, and no matter what happens, you will be less conflicted and therefore happier.
I wonder how many women think gay sex is a turn on? Maybe they would want to do a mmf and see their man with another man? I've heard of women get into watching two gay guys and even want to join in. Maybe they would get turned on bringing in man as the outsider?
ReplyDeleteAs a woman I can tell you this - it depends on the wife. How she is reacting. We women are as different as men - we react different as any other person.
ReplyDeleteFor example:
I'm that kind of woman that laughs over forgotten anniversaries and I totally lack any jealousy gene. I know him, he'll never cheat on me and because I trust him I just can't get jealous. In my opinion just a sign of insecurity. I don't want him to do everything for me and he doesn't tell me what to do. When he comes home late from work - I'm happy to see him.
Well - and now I know a lot of woman who thinks if he forgets the anniversary it's a sign that he doesn't care, who are jealous when he talks too much about a female working partner, who wants him to decide everything (because doing everything together is what "couples" do), who get mad when he comes home late.
It's how our brains are wired. Jack Scott has posted a funny video. It is ...the extemes. Reality is all inbetween. Some woman even think like men (haha..made a test once, my brain is male), some men think like women. No joke..
And in addition I think it depends on the whole life situation, the education of the wife and her own self esteem.
So I think you can say - the more intelligent, open minded and self confident the woman is, the higher is the chance of a better result. I wouldn't advise to come out to a clingy and insecure wife.
RB - in answer to your question...yes, open minded woman think that two guys together are hot. But we actually love those more where we can see an emotional connection, too. A good example is, that m/m romances are very much in coming. There is a hugh market for them and women love them. It all started in Paranormal romances, where is was "easier" to start with male couples but it's spreading ;)
Btw. if any of the readers here wants to make his wife a bit more openminded and she loves to read - buy her books with male couples.
What about the wife that just has a moral stance? I for one stand by my thinking that it's a sexual sin. I'm not uneducated or simple minded. I'm sick of people being intolerant of christian! What you do is your choice as long as it dowdy involve me. Also, before you say it .. No I do not believe homosexuality is more of a sin than any other. We all have sin; what happens later only god knows. However some woman would not stand for this in a marriage!
DeleteOh Dear! Here I go again....(also I'm not going to even venture into the bi-sexuality aspects of this article, you've all heard me on that already), suffice it to say I still don't see this as much help to the masses of mix-orientation marriages out there struggling with where to go. So, the 1st reminder; I've identified as gay (and from previous commentators we've discussed this blog postings as being oriented to bisexual married guys & a subsequent "win-win" for them - I also wanted to clarify that this "win-win" is crafted by a self identifying "gay" man in Cameron).
ReplyDeleteThe reason I don't see this as much help at all; from my own personal experience back at the beginning of my coming out two years ago, I was still very convinced I was just bisexual, I had strong feelings of love for my wife and could not imagine replacing those for a man, even though I was very sexuality attracted to men. After coming out to my wife, we had strong personal sexual feelings reinforced for each other, we had taken a vacation together to reconnect and explore what all this meant for both of us. During that vacation we had rekindled our sex life very actively & it was truly intense (i'd previously struggle for some years even having an orgasm during sex with my wife, now there where no problems). We spent a ton of time alone, walking beaches, hanging out, talking & dreaming about where to take this new found relationship & my attractions to men. We would check out other hot guys together & I got to explain a lot of where my attractions had gotten mixed up during my life and explained what did turn me on, all previous secrets known only to me. It truly did bring us very close.
And then; we returned to our normal life, of course with a renewed sense of commitment, to each other, our marriage, lots of sexual activities, I was on a high, I was finally out, I could talk about my same sex attractions now, Oh My Gosh, the freedom. I deleted all of the online & porn accounts I had previously had, I was committed to my wife again, I was going to turn off/turn down my same-sex attractions.
Then as normal routine life slowly started to set in and the practicalities of our life style slowly took us back to where we had less alone time or time to be like a newly-wed couple again, I found those male attractions would creep back in. I became more restless again, I needed to seek out something to help validate my same sex attractions, so I started back creating online accounts again and ultimately the feelings grew back inside me just as they had done so many other times that I had previously tried to shut them down/lock them out/hide from them, pray them away....albeit far worse this time!! Now I had for the first time felt the euphoria of actually being "out" to a few people, of actually acknowledging I was not "straight". So I sort help with my same sex attractions from my gay best friend about this new & much more severe imbalance & how could I go from being so deeply in love with my wife and my renewed commitment to being straight, then find I've swung even further to the gay-side of my feelings. Well (in my case anyway) THANK GOODNESS to him & he being blunt, would call me out on my desires to ignore this attraction to men. He finally got me to see that no matter what level of intimacy I create with my wife, I can not undo my "core" desires for men and until I accept that, I will always have an imbalance and unstable emotional relationship with myself and not solving that problem, leaves me far more ineffective for the other's in my family/life that rely on me to be husband/dad/provider/friend/business/community etc.
Thus started the need to dig even deeper within and face the fact that I was covering up & denying being gay as my core identity......
Continued.....
Nick, Fort Wayne, IN
Two questions, Nick:
Delete1. Why did you decide to come out to your wife two years ago, as opposed to three or five or one? Why then?
2. Do you think you would still be married to her if you had not come out to her? Or another way of putting it: if you had "kept on keeping on" as you had prior to coming out, would you still be "keeping on?"
As always, thanks for your terrific comments.
I'll try not to drone on, so here goes;
DeleteQuestion (1) This is actually easy, I'd always told myself that my feelings for men where just sexual attraction, I was straight (perhaps "Bi") I refused to look at any other possibility and spent years trying to find research on fixing myself to eliminate these feelings of sexual attraction, I would often try and deal with it like an addiction and all to often I would be fairly successful at it. I could make the feelings diminish or almost disappear for extended periods of time, 6-9 months. But I suffer from cabin-fever depression (LOL...un-diagnosed of course). But I learned that my feelings would reappear, as I became more trapped in my own thought's (often coincided with the winter season). Basically I knew I did NOT want to be Gay, I fought hard for everything I was, my family, business - I used over achievement to hide any signs of being Gay. But I never truly won, the feelings always came back & each time with more force. I decided I perhaps could keep a better balance in my own head if I sort-out another guy in the same situation (some type of FWB)..When I found him, It did something I never expected; as I "fell in love with him". The rest of the story, was doing the processing (with a lot of help from him) that my attraction to men was NOT about sex, but about an inner connection I'd never felt the depths of with any other woman before (even while I knew how much I love my wife). Ultimately, he was not available for a relationship (of course that complicated my journey out), but it helped force me to evaluate everything I thought I knew about myself.
So, in short - I fell for a guy & knew thereafter I was denying who I was & It was my responsibility to fix the mess I had created. That started with me knowing I had to out myself to the most important person in my life, my Wife.
Question (2) I never wanted to divorce her & at the beginning of coming out, that was far from my goal. However, I was broken, I'd become so depressed & dysfunctional - I don't think anything would of Kept me Going. I HATED myself for the lies/denial, it was the only thing I've ever lied about in my life (just happened to be a bit of a big-black lie). I was at a point that everyone knew something was wrong with me, it was very apparent too all, just nobody had any idea what it was caused by.
A side note became, until I could tell people what was truthfully tearing me apart, I could not start any kind of recovery. I'm sure that my type-A (Leo) personality plays a lot into why I could not "kept on keeping", things have to get fixed somehow, as the status quo is never actually static, but it ebbs & flows. I found that as time progressed, there was more negative than positive energy being generated for all involved in my life, starting with myself.
Thanks Cameron.
Nick, Fort Wayne, IN
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
DeleteI don't want to put words in your mouth, so just to be clear...if you had not met that particular FWB chances are you would not have come out yet? And if you had not come out you'd still be married and struggling with your sexuality?
I'm asking you to speculate about how your life might be different now if you had not met that particular FWB. Yes, you had a lot of thoughts swirling around your head for an extended period of time, but it seems to me that if you had met him earlier you would have come out earlier, and similarly, if you hadn't met him yet you probably wouldn't have come out yet either. Is that correct?
Cameron, I'm not very comfortable speculating on what-if scenarios, but I really feel though I was at a point of coming out somehow, I might of just tried divorce without coming out if I'd not met the FWB. My feelings on this, are he very much helped me admit to my sexuality. I believe that unbeknownst to me I was secretly starving for male love (because I previously thought it was all just about sex & physical needs) & any guy that had returned that to me at that time I would of fallen for. There is more to this story afterwards, but we'd need a novel for that part, as I subsequently fell in love with another guy that I'm now dating.
DeleteSecondly, on the subject of this friend that helped me come out (we are now very close best friends & 100% non-sexual), he truly was right for my coming out, he is blunt, calls it like it is, but very sweet & supportive, he was tireless in putting up with the emotional mess I was during this time of coming out. He made me face facts full on. So if I'd met him earlier or later, he was of had the same affect I think on me. However, when I met him I was very much in the mode of looking for another married guy to help balance me out & try and stay in the closet married & happier with my gay needs taken care of. But what I found out was that outing myself to a real person (other than online friends etc) & actually talking face to face with someone about all of this/my struggles/needs/everything; showed me just how screwed up I was and how much I was denying who I really am.
I feel I would of come out around this time in my life anyway, but I don't think I would of done it so cleanly, fully & honestly with out him.
Nick, Fort Wayne IN
It's pretty clear that if you hadn't met your friend your journey out of the closet would have still happened, but at a much slower pace. Your friend's willingness to continually challenge you was a pivotal influence that few closeted men are fortunate enough to have. His challenges are what enabled you to discover your true self in a relatively short period of time.
DeleteYour story is a good one because it shows that a man can find enduring happiness once he accepts who he is, regardless of whether he is straight, gay or bisexual. Ultimately that is what the "win-win" is all about, finding and knowing one's true self.
The happiness & freedom I now feel is at a level I've never experience before, don't get me wrong - life can still be tough (& gay relationships even tougher) - But the way I was able to come out, gave me all of this inner peace. Asking the tough questions & doing the right thing, is often impossible with out help & I see to many men in these situations try to go it alone - or seek online help. While this was a good start for me in dealing with my self (thank you to many of the bloggers, Cameron included), it only became "real" when I talked to people in person - particularly a supportive person/friend that was on my side. I too had to stick with him, even when it hurt a lot to dig deep inside. All too often men are weak when examining themselves, its a big barrier to accepting everything that we've discussed the last week or so here.
DeleteSo, I'm going to anger your readers again & state, I don't really believe in Bisexuality, I can accept it from some, but not most, particularly closeted married men. I speak from personal experience & not my own. I've know met in person, made friends with & supported countless men that are somewhere along this journey-out timeline. My opinions are not formed from blogs/books/studies/statistics, they are formed from hearing first hand accounts of these journey's, and each of them are so similar. When tested on their true emotional feelings, I find all of these guys are really gay (i've previously posted my definition/litmus test on what makes you get labeled gay) and just struggling with their own level of acceptance of being labeled gay. DMG wrote about labels, he's wrong! - they are important for the person themselves & then everyone else to know how to accept & be supportive. Find your true label gay/straight or even Bi & then live that life - honestly, openly & with the true family & friends around you!! Talk about it, seek help, get the Demon out from within, Is is scary? hell Yes! will you & everyone else survive - Yes!!
My friend that was pivotal in my coming out just posted this today on his facebook, I thought it was appropriate "The choices we make dictate the life we will lead. To thy own self be true. - Shakespeare."
Finally, the short version of my story & journey out is being published in the June Newletter of "Straight Spouse Support Network", for anyone that wishes a more chronological account.
Nick, Fort Wayne IN
(ran out of characters on the first post....Sorry)....
ReplyDeleteRegarding all of these statistics & speculations on who are still hiding behind closet doors, I have predominantly met other married men with similar stories and have yet to find any "truly bisexual men", using my limited definition of this is being: if you identify as "bi", but are fucking around with guys on the side & having limited/no sex with your wife - your GAY!!!
Oh, and regarding a prior comment of mine, just an update! I was again "dirty" dancing with a best friend a girl this past weekend and with a couple drinks in both of us, I was again making out with her & both of us could of definitely taken it further, but nope...Still Gay, not "Bi" & while it was fun & erotic, it does not confuse me at all about what I am. Obviously, because I've had sexual experiences with girls (unlike some other gays) & they were good, I'm not uncomfortable in this area at all....does not make me "Bi" though...
Thanks as always for bringing this subject to us for comment.
Nick, Fort Wayne, IN
And now to "vent" a little more about why I feel so much of this conversation is still BULL-SHIT.
ReplyDeleteI have a friend that is right now headed to "friggin" Midland Texas to "Pray the gay Away" for the sake of appeasing his wife/family/church/friends and to show them that he is trying everything possible to fight against his feelings of homosexuality. While I'm not here to wrestle with the issues of religion & homosexuality, I am convinced that those of us involved in these conversations about Right & Wrong, Win-Win or Lose-Lose, alternatives to honesty, saving marriages that are built on falsehoods (& I'm not saying anyone of us does not love our wifes), that we're str8-curious, "BI" or whatever, perpetuates these issues and not just for ourselves, but for those coming along behind us, still deep in their own closets. Until being GAY is seen as normal, that you can of been married and be gay, you can have kids and be gay, you can be religious and be gay, you can run a mainstream business and be gay, Its OK to be GAY!!!....hiding it is destructive, depressing, degrading, emotionally draining....
(OH, by-the-way, my friend is GAY, he'll tell you that, his boyfriend will certainly confirm it, and he's not BI, even thought he is deeply in love with his wife).
We all know that these websites/blogs etc are often the first place a deeply closeted person comes to seek out validation of their own struggles, I'm very wary of perpetuating miss-information. Gay is not a choice, the only choice is whether you choose to deny it & the less you deny it, come-out, the more you transfer the "outer" life style peace you think you are striving for, to an inner peace that you find of acceptance for who you truly are.
I believe some marriages may actually survive & flourish once the gay person comes out, but most will not & they should not. I divorced because I knew I would eventually want a true relationship with a man (& not just sex), and being honest what was RIGHT; for me, my wife & the potential partner, I had to divorce. Just as if I'd of wanted a relationship with another woman, then divorce would of course been the only option, so why would that not be true just because I want the relationship to be with a man instead. Anything less, continues to validate our second-class citizenship status in this world.
But, I hear you all saying that you still love your wife, why can't you make something work, well guess what; I still love my wife (I just got done texting with her, before I wrote this piece & we finished the text conversation with "I LUV U" to each other) and I can support her & my family, just as I've always done, love her, provide, be involved, I don't have to be married to do all of those things and many more.
Well, I'm done for now.."vented out" & again Cameron, thanks for allowing all of this comment & conversation
Nick, Fort Wayne IN
Nick as a fully "out" bisexual man (I’ve been out for more than the 18 years I have been married to my wife) I hear a number of things in your story.
Delete1) I hear your American cultural limitations. As one who is not American and one who lives in a country (Canada) and a city (Toronto) that tends to be more liberal and open to such differences, I have found great societal freedoms to simply be who I am…bisexual. I do not mean to sound that everyone is perfectly comfortable with my life, but I do mean that the validation that I have received from people that matter to me; family, friends and colleagues has made being bisexual much easier without having to resort to black and white extremes (ie I must be either gay or straight.)
2) I also hear a man that has practiced "denial", “secrets” and "self justification" for many years. I truly do not mean this as a judgemental statement. What I am pointing out is that we all become good at what we practice. In this I have learned to be wary of the conclusions of men that have lived a life in denial and self justification, not because their new found conclusions have no merit, but because of their life's practice, they are still coming to conclusions based on those tools that they have fostered for years and years. If you have spent a lifetime practicing “denial, self justifications, secrets and no self awareness” the bottom reality is that it is not going to change over night simply because you have now addressed one area of your life (ie coming out).
3) I have thought much about statistics and certainly about such statistics as you mention above. Unfortunately such statistics I conclude are fundamentally flawed because of societal acceptances towards bisexuality. Personally I conclude that bisexuality is a very huge but much hidden entity that still awaits its day in the spotlight. Until that comfort levels set in, most men will typically live their true selves in hiding and secrets. Having said that, when that day does come, I am absolutely convinced that you will see more and more men publicly living bisexual lives in its many forms. We are far from a small number (this I know from our Bisexual Beer Groups that we host in Toronto.)
4) Lastly I also noted in your experience a scenario that is very common for men... to have sex without emotions. It has often been noted that most men (in actuality Ti "thinkers" according to Myers Briggs) actually choose to split their psyche and compartmentalize sex FROM emotions. You are correct that once you chose to breach those separated entities, you found yourself there. This statement alone is more telling about your struggle to know yourself than does the story of understanding your orientation. The bottom line is not about men coming to peace simply with orientation but rather about realizing that in order to be healthy one has to be willing to approach themselves holistically and address the emotional man within themselves as well.
Groovy Blessings
Bi Gentleman
Thanks for the prodding on these issues; First comment; None of my comments are meant to be taken personally or that I'm judging anyone - far from it, I'm not a "choir boy" as you mentioned about the lies/secrets I will of kept, but I fully admit them as I came out, it was the only part of my life I lived deceitfully - I hated/hated myself for this while in the closet & of course rationalized to myself at the same time. But coming out gave me the freedom to be honest about all of that & to never have to lie again. I came out the way I did to get beyond the issues you talk about closeted guys having, I'm open & out in all aspects these days; however, I certainly still keep my private activities of the bedroom to myself and my partner.
DeleteOh - BTW, I grew up in the UK (& I have two gay brothers, married & a lesbian partnered sister) & other non-confused gay friends locally and around the world.
All of my comments are not aimed to judge or criticize anyone, they are aimed at men that are sleeping around with other men behind their wife's backs, perpetuating the myths of sexuality and right & wrong that you call me out on. Your fine to be wary of any conclusion I propose, but mine are truly born of coming full circle with my own process of discovery (thankful for the tremendous help & support I recieved and continue to get) and now ready for the next phase of my life albeit a mix of my old life & family and now new opportunities. My sexual struggles are truly behind me....
I can't comment on statistics as previously mentioned.
I was a follower of many blogs several years ago & particularly a fan of Cameron. All of these postings of mine got started when I saw the "Win-Win" scenario & because I was asked to write my story for the Spouse Support Group. I can't support the deception, denial, lies - we have to move beyond that. Have I done wrong, YES - & I came out and admitted it, have I atoned to those I wronged, YES and I certainly have no need to apologize to anyone else. I also know my story is being repeated many many times world over, I'm not the first or the last, there are many many more struggling with this. I just want as much clarity on the issue as possible, not hypothesis, but real world stories, therefore I applause you on sharing yours.
Thanks...
Nick, Fort Wayne IN
Nick,
DeleteI want to thank you for describing my own life. I am also from Fort Wayne, ironically. You have described and explained gay and bisexual in a way that makes sense to me. I heard you say you still love your wife (ex wife) and that you are still attracted to women too but that the deep emotional, spiritual and physical connection is with men. It is not just a sex thing. That was illuminating to me.
Jeff G., Fort Wayne, IN
Cameron, thanks for this in-depth series of stories. I can tell you have done a lot of work on this theme.
ReplyDeleteAs I have been reading them I have been struck, not only within your post but also by Nick's comments, with the narrow and rigid ways we all tend to define these issues in our lives. Your posts have tended to portray intimacy as strictly a physical thing, and granted for men we tend to limit our expression of intimacy in this way; however, as any woman will tell you, intimacy encompasses a myriad of expressions within a relationship. And I would dare to say that those men who came out to their wives and felt a renewed spark of intimacy were having this reaction due in large part to the fact that the act of sharing their inner-most secrets with the woman they love was in and of itself an act of deep emotional intimacy (not a just a release of sexual energy). This emotional intimacy is often the level and type of intimacy that women crave (I believe men do too to a degree; however, since we really only get our big oxytocin push upon orgasm we tend not to seek out this type of intimacy as often). So if men only seek out their intimacy needs on a strictly physical level, their relationships are going to struggle — that goes for straight, gay, or bi men. It has been my experience that to achieve a long lasting "win-win" we as men need to expand the way in which we express intimacy with another.
And to Nick in Fort Wayne, you yourself admit you are basing your opinions on a narrow definition of bi-sexuality. In earlier comments you mentioned that you feel that there is a very small minority of true bisexual men in the world. This is true if we go by the narrow definition you support (the one you use in this week's comments about a married man not having much sex with his wife and sleeping with men). However, I personally believe it is quite the opposite. I believe that there are more bisexual people in the world than there are true straight or gay. We are made to deny or disavow this because of homophobia. Homophobia pushes us to choose a box at the two ends of the continuum. There is safety and privilege found at the two extremes. But sex is complicated and varied and personal. And try as we might, sexuality resists being defined by our ever changing culture. Do I believe our sexual attractions are a choice? No. I would never have chosen to be "bi" in a million years living in today's culture. My life would have been so much less complicated if I would have either been strictly gay or straight. I have tried living solely as each to no avail and each led only to frustration and self-judgment. I have been out since I first met my wife 27 years ago. I am out to friends and family. I find a myriad of ways to be fulfilled. I recently had a lengthy relationship with a man that I loved (and still care about deeply) while still being very much in love with my wife. Wow, loving two people, what a crazy notion (another cultural taboo). Was it difficult? Yup. Was it rewarding? Very much. And it worked because we were all very open an communicative with each other. Will I have another male partner in the future? I don't know, but I am open to the possibility.
Which leads me to my final comment. Where I feel we do ourselves and our relationships the most harm is when we try to live up to someone else's expectations or definition of how we should be or how our intimate relationships should be. When we limit our reference point to what others define for us, we limit not only our lives but who we truly are. Labels and ideals are great for when we want to be lazy with our thinking and let someone else do the work for us. How about just simply arriving in the moment and being fully present with an open and honest heart. Then the "long term terrible consequences" that Jack Scott portrays will simply be — what is — and we will find that we are whole and perfect just the way we are. You only lose what you cling to, whether that is an identity or a relationship.
DMG - Thanks for your excellent comment. It's made me realize that I need to be more clear. When I use the term 'intimacy' I don't particularly mean sex, although that's a natural by-product; what I do mean is emotional intimacy. That's when a couple shares their deepest thoughts and feelings and because they've done so they feel closer than ever. I'd like struggling bi-married men to try to rediscover that part of their relationship with their wives.
DeleteWHAT A STUNNING COMMENT! DMG I think this is truly the first comment that I have read on the net that actually articulates my life as well! Bravo and thank you.
DeleteBi-Gentleman
Toronto
Cameron, thanks for tackling this very tough subject. So much has been written by you and by those who have commented with which I identify. It's truly a good thing to see such an outpouring of comments on this subject.
ReplyDeleteFor those who are still struggling with the issue, I think the message is clear - other men have struggled with this issue. Some of us have lost and some of us have actually come to a win/win arrangement. But neither eventuality is one an individual can count on. It is best one know his wife very very well and be confident in her ultimate reaction before tempting fate.
As my own blog has attracted more and more readers, I have begun to hear from more and more women themselves who are dealing with a gay or bisexual husband. Much to my surprise, most of these women actually want my advice as to how they can keep their marriage together. Most of the women who have contacted me are younger women. I don't know if this may be indicative of a change in the way younger women are looking at homosexuality and bisexuality or not, but it has been very interesting to me.
As for myself, Jason mentioned in his comment above that my and my wife's relationship has been a good example of a deep emotional and sexual relationship which remained constant on both sides of my telling her of my bisexuality. In a manner of speaking, I think my relationship with my wife pretty well illustrates your thesis. We have had a deep emotional and sexual relationship since we were 16 or 17 years old. Instead of tapering off as emotions and sex do in most marriages, it just got better and better for us through the years. It was like "practice makes perfect." The more we made love the better we got at it.
The only fly in the ointment was that heterosexual love did nothing to meet my bisexual needs. When I told my wife, it was not all sweetness and light. She was stunned and hurt. She was fearful I might leave her for a man. But as these first reactions melted away, she began to wonder if she should leave me. In her own words the reason she didn't leave is because she came to see that nothing had changed except that she "now knew." The love and the intimacy that we had shared all these years still remained, and she was determined not to let the fact that she now knew destroy what had long since become the best part of our lives.
I am convinced that the emotional and sexual intimacy that was so much a part of our lives together played a big part in our own personal "win/win" story. In June it will have been 6 years since I told her. It's a non issue in our lives now. Other issues of a more serious nature (my cancer) have taken hold of our lives. I'm not sure what I would do now if she had left me those 6 years ago. I'm glad she didn't. I think now, I love her more than I did the day I married her and I'll love her until the day I die. I also love my buddy in a different way. That is reality for me. That is win/win.
Jack Scott
Geez, what a crock of shit from all of you men. " now that he's told her the truth they have a better relationship" wow.. Wtf? You mean being honest about your relationship, sexuality and who you are makes you close to people??? are all of you retarded? " I love my buddy in a different way" you mean getting your rocks off with your cock in him?? So your so sucked into pleasure and desire that you don't care where you get it from?? Not different to sooo many people today that have zero self control, no personal morals, zero ethics and are consumed with pleasure seeking. That right, I guess life is all about you, your pleasure, what you want, you, you,you. We all look around and wonder why the world is in such shambles?! Self righteous,greedy people with no means of controlling what sin we let tempt us or shape us. God have mercy.
ReplyDeleteAs a woman who found out someone she loved very much was sleeping with men behind her back, in quite a reckless fashion, I can give anyone credit for at least being honest. He will not admit it and I had to let him go because of it, maybe if he could be honest I could have tried to arrange something. However, I am going to say you really are quite the selfish beings, having your cake and eating it too. I wonder what will come of the world if we all live like this. Do any of you think it is possible for a male to love a female the way that she loves him? Wanting him and only him? From what I can see, this is not possible, so should we just be lesbians to get this sort of relationship? Is there something wrong with me for wanting to be the only one you want? Is it possible for any male to love just one person, or do you all have to spread your seed?
ReplyDeleteI still love that man with a deep lingering want, but I know he cannot give me what I need so I leave him alone. It is very sad.
I never really believed in love spell but when I was losing fiancé, Davido, I needed help and somewhere to turn badly. I found prophetharry@ymail.com online and ordered a RETURN MY LOVER SPELL. Several days later, my phone rang. Davido was her old self again and wanted to come back to me! Not only back, my casting opened her up to how much I loved and needed him. Spell Casting isn't brainwashing, but they opened her eyes to how much we have. I recommend anyone who is in my old situation to try it. It will bring wonderful surprises as well as your lover back to you. The way things were meant to be. You CAN be happy in Love! Yes, Spell Casting is 100% REAL. Steve W, Traverse City
ReplyDeleteI think that if my husband identifies as bi but can remain monogamous to me then I could find a way to sustain the marriage. If he ever comes out as gay, I do not think I could spend a lifetime knowing that was his second pick for a sexual partner. To me infidelity is infidelity. If he habitually sought out sex with another woman that would be the end. If in time he finds that men continue to be compelling, then same goes. If I'm not enough, then I would rather be alone.
ReplyDeleteI am a bisexual married man. I do not identify as gay because I am not. I am bisexual, which I should not have to repeat, but feel the need to because gay men assume bisexual men are simply confused. This discrimination has to stop if we are to have open and unbiased dialog. Do I think about men when I;m in bed with my wife? Occasionally. Do I think about lesbians, bisexuals, and everything else under the sun? Yes. So what does this make me? Gay? Hardly. I look at women, [used to] have sex with men, and am committed to one woman. That's it. I'm not an animal. I have self control. And if at some point my wife comes to a place where she's okay with me playing around from time to time with men, great. If not, I still love her. I could also be a terminally heterosexual sex addict without moral or ethical boundaries -- and which would be worse? We all struggle to one degree or another in our relationships no matter what our sexual orientation's happen to be. But I will concede that truly gay men who've found themselves in straight relationships should exit said relationships immediately, if not sooner, for the sake of both.
ReplyDelete3 months ago my wife found out i was having sex with men some as young as 20, I am 59 and been married for 37 years. I was sexually abused in my teens a few times,i have often had fantasies for men..
ReplyDeleteI love my wife very much,but yes i have cheated,I have hada lot of counselling and accepted im bi,its feels great to be open,my fmaily know and all very supportive, even my 87 year old mother ( who laughed and said,thats why you used to puts grips in your hair when you were young,i was brought up with 5 girls) she was angry about the sex abuse,and said if she knew that then she would cut their heads off,thats mum)
For my wife,its been traumactic, with high anxiety,anger etc its been a very very painful time for us,more for her. I dont know what the future willl be, I have told her and my children whatever happens i will always be there for them and support them as I have always done,that wont change.
I still think of being with men,and having some great sex. i always fantasise with men,when i used to have sex with her, (when) Iused to think of men to get an orgasam,Im slim ,fit and healthy for my age,, often mistaken as 10 years younger. For me its going to be either a monogomous relationship with my wife, and dare not go near another man,or would i be tempted to look inside the box again ??.
Or we have a separation, sell our house 50/50 and both buy our own properties outright with the equity on our current home and remain good freinds as my wife would want us to be,
We have both agreed that no decisions will be made yet, we commuincate and respect each other daily etc, she supports my counselling etc.
We are in separate bedrooms now, and thats working ok, we share other things, shopping, gardening etc as we always have,and have been since my relevalation, we both have excellent family support which is great. The future who knows?
Pete - Bristol UK